Please use wordfromwisdom@smtel.com  I cannot access the other one! Drats….

I believe I would rather hear what Pam has to say to my last two posts…because I am totally in the dark now as to what is being thought here….

Pam stated: “Although Jesus is God, he took the form of a servant in the likeness of man and became obedient unto death. Obedient, is God obedient? To whom? However, as the likeness of man, Jesus became obedient.”

This is a very important conversation to me, and for those I love here, because there are those who are preaching against the deity of Christ and using the verses like Phil 2:5-8 to diminish Him as fully God, without understanding….I hope.

Kenosis was first promoted by guess who…the Roman Catholic Church…it has been picked up by others such as protestants  religions, the separated sisters of Rome, and…BBS, Saddler, Kurth, Jordan and others are teaching Kenosis.  It has begun to grow like a cancer among grace believers.

I am NOT saying you are Pam…I am saying it is being used by others to sway believers that Jesus Christ did not know things and… still… seated at the right hand of the Father…still does not know things and is still learning from “God”…which is to diminish Him as God!

So what is Kenosis? (And this below shows the problem with the new translations…where they change the words from reputation to “emptied himself”….)

The word “kenosis” (kenosis) has entered theological language from Philippians 2:7, where in the sentence he “emptied himself” the Greek verb is ekenosen. “Kenosis,” then, the corresponding noun, has become a technical term for the humiliation of the Son in the incarnation, but in recent years has acquired a still more technical sense, i.e. of the Son’s emptying Himself of certain attributes, especially of omniscience.

From Mirriam Webster:

Definition of kenosis

We serve one God in three persons and the person Jesus Christ is the fullness of the Godhead, bodily. As a man Jesus Christ humbled Himself to be made sin and die for us, and this is why His name is exalted above every name.

We understand that Jesus Christ has a divine nature and a human nature though He is One Being.  His divine nature does not alter His human nature and His human nature does not alter His divine nature.  Meaning that He slept, He also died and rose again! He ate, He also calmed the storms and healed the sick and raised others from the dead!

(This is a question for all of you.  WHO raised Jesus Christ from the dead?)

Jesus Christ is always God and always man.  Jesus Christ could only die if He was man, He could only die for our sins if He was God.  (I answered the question I asked a few posts up…)

Another question for you Pam if you do not mind…. Do you believe that Jesus Christ as God emptied, laid aside or removed His divine nature from Jesus…so that Jesus the man could humble Himself to obey the Father?

Now to answer a question.  YES…the Father, as God… did humble Himself. Psa 113:6  Who humbleth himself to behold the things that are in heaven, and in the earth! 

Remember this…that trying to change or lessen the deity of Christ is the same as trying to change or lessen the Godhead. If it is true of Jesus Christ who is the fullness of the Godhead, it is true of the Father and the Holy Spirit. They are One.  Jesus Christ has always been the son of God. Jesus Christ added humanity to Himself, He did not set aside any of Himself as God!

This is an excellent account of the Holy Spirit humbling Himself:

Joh 16:13-14  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.   He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 

I love you all…I encourage us all to pray for one another while we study these most important doctrines out.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 3 months ago by Mari - Administrator.

Also…

“Mark 13:32 is another subject for another time.  This muddies the waters for me as does 1 Timothy 3:16.  It does not help to compare apples to oranges.”

Pam….agreed! I think we should do them next on another thread here too!   🙂

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<div>Last but not least….#4</div>
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<div>While I do believe there is prophecy in Psalms…it IS David writing them. Attributing everything that David wrote as applying to Jesus Christ seems to make the characteristics of David as if David is more than a man…and therefore making Jesus less than fully God! </div>
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<div>Remember too that David is just a man…a sinner in need of a Saviour….While Jesus is both sinless fully man and fully God!</div>
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<div>Just some thoughts here….</div>
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This is a great discussion! I will make this #1…so we can keep them straight…

Pam….you just said: Yes, yes, yes. That was my whole point Jesus had faith that his shed blood, death, and resurrection would be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world to them that believe. This whole discussion came about because Mari and Justin believe that the faith of Christ is the content of our faith. I think that is a huge difference.

Pam, as we both agree, Jesus was fully man and fully God.  Why would He need to have faith that His shed blood, death and resurrection would be the propitiation for our sins for those who believe?   This is separating Jesus out as man…not including that He is always who He is, which is fully God.  It is ignoring that Jesus is fully God to say that He did not know this ..but needed to have faith like any sinful, unknowing man. That He needed faith in His Godself, because remember, He and the Father are one!

The word of God tells us that He is the FULLNESS of the Godhead bodily!

While Jesus is fully man…had the nature of man…He is also fully God and has the nature of God.  As a man he slept…but He heard every prayer whether sleeping or not… While He is fully man and experienced it all and every temptation of man, He remained sinless. Do you all  know why?

#2 What is being taught by the faith of Christ in some grace circles…is that Jesus did not know everything.  Kind of like what was stated above, that Jesus had to have faith in His own blood and the plan of God…as if He were just a man who did not know the things of God! Making Him less than God…and only a man.  This IS Kenosis.   So…there must be something that is missing here….

Let us broaden our study so we can understand…me too!  This is a very hard study in many ways!

1. We need to understand that Jesus knows everything because Jesus is fully God, and as man He is the fullness of the Godhead, bodily.

2. Who denies that Jesus is God?  All the cult religions in one form or way or another, in denying Him the attributes of God.  Or in softly…denying Jesus the attributes of God with things like emptying, putting himself away…the et als of Kenosis.  This is what is happening today, even in grace circles…a sort of soft denial of the deity of Christ…and miss-using the expression of the “faith of Christ” to begin this old battle today amongst believers.  It is why we need to study and prove this out so that we remain strong and true to the word of God.

2. We see differences and we know differences are important!  Let me show you two.  The Apostles understood that Jesus KNOWS all things.

Joh 16:30  Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

We are told that ALL the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Jesus Christ…!

Col 2:3  In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 

Then we also read: Mar 13:32  But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 

Which is true?  They both are true!  It is the same as when James tells us that faith without works is dead….but Paul says that we are saved by our faith and not our works….which is true?  Both are true but for different people at different times.  So….why are we being told that Jesus knows all things, is the holder of all wisdom and knowledge, yet He does not know when He will return…but the Father?

I have written enough here…and will now give you an article to read, rather than to r-write in my own  words…just do not have time today.  And really…why mess with a clear message?  LOL

I hope this helps.  It surely did help me.  However….I am still studying fully with you all!!

Mark 13:32 and the Deity of Christ

I also want to thank everyone for participating here.  I think it is one of the best discussions and studies we have ever done!  🙂

Okay….finally got here!  Long story I will share later if anyone is interested…but I am home for the next three days and hope to get caught up  reading here…and the house!  LOL  Okay…reading now….